Encourage one another and build one another up. Pray without ceasing. Test everything. Keep what is good. Avoid all evil. -1 Thess 5:11,17,21,22
Wednesday, September 18, 2024
Moral reasoning and accountability
For whatever reason, it is easier to behave in a morally proper way when you know that there is a chance that you will be held accountable for your actions.
Is that sarcasm? If one needs to feel they will be "held accountable" to behave "morally" is that really morals? I don't think so. Behaving in a moral manner is to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not for fear of punishment or being held accountable. I hope that was sarcasm or I am truly disappointed in you.
In times like these (e.g. this discussion, not the general circumstances), I'm reminded of the Bob Dylan song "With God on our side". It's really hard for an intelligent person to take a stance either way after listening to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMifwzfwyFA
I mean, be objective and remove your own biases. The Muslim religion teaches it is morally OK to rape and even enslave any non-believer (e.g. every Christian, Sikh, Buddhist, etc., etc., etc.) In their eyes, according to their elders, their teachers, their holy books, and their moral guides, its all morally good! They're Kafir! Sub-human! Ya know, like blacks used to be treated by all them baptist plantation owners that prayed to the Lord Jesus every Sunday?
Now if'n you're Christian, well...
Suffice to say, the notion of "Moral" is very subjective (as Mr. Dylan waxes).
Whenever someone uses that language, be prepared, as you are entering into their worldview, which may not line up with your own.
To my mind it's the idea that there is a morally right and therefore morally wrong stance on any issue A, B, or C. Hint: There isn't one, it's all relative. Christians were OK with (literally) slaughtering muslims when they moved north those couple times back in the day, were they not? 'Splain to me how it's different than muslims slaughtering christians? Who's patch of dirt claimed it first, is that going to be the argument?
It is morally right, so long as God is on our side. If you can't see the hypocrisy, you're not old enough for this conversation.
We learn "morals" from our parents. We create a mental map of their moral landscape as they discipline us.
So if consequences "taint" or pollute or poison "morality" then you have a Catch-22, because that is how "morals" were drilled into you head.
Perverse incentives are called "moral hazards" because they can overwhelm morals. Example, a cash pay-out for burning down your house. Additionally, a set of rewards and consequences that are in alignment with proper moral behavior INCREASES proper moral behavior.
Consider the second-to-last line in The Lord's Prayer which reads "And suffer us not to be tempted" or "Lead us not into temptation" depending on the version you prefer. If Jesus didn't tells us to pray for "morals so strong as to be impervious to temptation" but for the wisdom and grace that we should not be exposed to perverse incentives.
Genuine regenerate children of God seek to please Him by doing things He approves, and avoiding the things He hates. Not as a means of entering eternal life, but in gratitude for His unmerited favour and mercy, and His gift of eternal life. When Christ Jesus declared IT IS FINISHED on the cross He meant it. I am to be kind and patient to my fellow humans, and also courageous and resolute when some of them are self declared enemies of God and decency and prove their reprobation by their actions. This may involve helping a muslim with his broken down car outside your house, and marching into battle on your front lawn against his ideological brethren when they show up another time to rob, rape and kill.
ERJ - On of the reefs on which "modern thinking" founders is the idea of all cultures as having equal value. It breaks down in two ways. The first is that it is a nice sentiment in theory, but not in practice e.g., is a culture that practice cannibalism or abuse/servitude of another sub-group of equal value to, let us say, classical Western thought and culture? The second is that also means that those in all cultures have to be willing to be questioned and have their errors and shortfalls called out and discussed - on this particular point "modern thinking" is very much of the thinking they can in no way be questioned or debated as to the value of what their culture brings to the table.
To Anon's point above, there are good and bad people in every culture - and in some case those outside of my culture or religions or social group may actually be of greater similarity with me than those of my culture or religion or social group. Be wise and serpents and innocent as doves, as it were.
Is that sarcasm? If one needs to feel they will be "held accountable" to behave "morally" is that really morals? I don't think so. Behaving in a moral manner is to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not for fear of punishment or being held accountable. I hope that was sarcasm or I am truly disappointed in you.
ReplyDeleteIn times like these (e.g. this discussion, not the general circumstances), I'm reminded of the Bob Dylan song "With God on our side". It's really hard for an intelligent person to take a stance either way after listening to it.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMifwzfwyFA
I mean, be objective and remove your own biases. The Muslim religion teaches it is morally OK to rape and even enslave any non-believer (e.g. every Christian, Sikh, Buddhist, etc., etc., etc.) In their eyes, according to their elders, their teachers, their holy books, and their moral guides, its all morally good! They're Kafir! Sub-human! Ya know, like blacks used to be treated by all them baptist plantation owners that prayed to the Lord Jesus every Sunday?
Now if'n you're Christian, well...
Suffice to say, the notion of "Moral" is very subjective (as Mr. Dylan waxes).
Whenever someone uses that language, be prepared, as you are entering into their worldview, which may not line up with your own.
To my mind it's the idea that there is a morally right and therefore morally wrong stance on any issue A, B, or C. Hint: There isn't one, it's all relative. Christians were OK with (literally) slaughtering muslims when they moved north those couple times back in the day, were they not? 'Splain to me how it's different than muslims slaughtering christians? Who's patch of dirt claimed it first, is that going to be the argument?
It is morally right, so long as God is on our side. If you can't see the hypocrisy, you're not old enough for this conversation.
Prepare to be disappointed.
DeleteWe learn "morals" from our parents. We create a mental map of their moral landscape as they discipline us.
So if consequences "taint" or pollute or poison "morality" then you have a Catch-22, because that is how "morals" were drilled into you head.
Perverse incentives are called "moral hazards" because they can overwhelm morals. Example, a cash pay-out for burning down your house. Additionally, a set of rewards and consequences that are in alignment with proper moral behavior INCREASES proper moral behavior.
Consider the second-to-last line in The Lord's Prayer which reads "And suffer us not to be tempted" or "Lead us not into temptation" depending on the version you prefer. If Jesus didn't tells us to pray for "morals so strong as to be impervious to temptation" but for the wisdom and grace that we should not be exposed to perverse incentives.
Genuine regenerate children of God seek to please Him by doing things He approves, and avoiding the things He hates. Not as a means of entering eternal life, but in gratitude for His unmerited favour and mercy, and His gift of eternal life. When Christ Jesus declared IT IS FINISHED on the cross He meant it. I am to be kind and patient to my fellow humans, and also courageous and resolute when some of them are self declared enemies of God and decency and prove their reprobation by their actions. This may involve helping a muslim with his broken down car outside your house, and marching into battle on your front lawn against his ideological brethren when they show up another time to rob, rape and kill.
ReplyDeleteIn my castle, my morals are the only ones that matter. "Get off my lawn!"
ReplyDeleteERJ - On of the reefs on which "modern thinking" founders is the idea of all cultures as having equal value. It breaks down in two ways. The first is that it is a nice sentiment in theory, but not in practice e.g., is a culture that practice cannibalism or abuse/servitude of another sub-group of equal value to, let us say, classical Western thought and culture? The second is that also means that those in all cultures have to be willing to be questioned and have their errors and shortfalls called out and discussed - on this particular point "modern thinking" is very much of the thinking they can in no way be questioned or debated as to the value of what their culture brings to the table.
ReplyDeleteTo Anon's point above, there are good and bad people in every culture - and in some case those outside of my culture or religions or social group may actually be of greater similarity with me than those of my culture or religion or social group. Be wise and serpents and innocent as doves, as it were.
ERJ- I wonder how many went off here in the US.
ReplyDeleteAnon
Put that thing down until after you made sure it wasn't sourced through Israel!
ReplyDelete