This post was requested by ColdSoldier and seconded by Filthie in the comments a few days ago.
I used to work with a gentleman named John Keersmacher. John not only had a Ph.D. from U.C. San Diego but had done post-doctoral work on IQs John had contributed to the body of work that became the book The Bell Curve. John was very generous in sharing his knowledge.
So with very little humility, I might know a bit more about IQs than the average duffer from Eaton Rapids.
I must also share that Mrs ERJ's Uncle used to be a pastor at a church that served Southern University and A&M College in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Southern University is a public, historically Black, Land Grant University. Being in a warm climate, it attracts many students from the Caribbean and from Africa.
Keersmacher's understanding about IQs
A dunce |
The only useful predictive ability of a high-IQ is the potential for successfully completing your first year of college.
People WANT IQ to mean far more than it is capable of delivering. It is NOT a prism to a person's soul or worth.
That said, if you cannot successfully complete your first year of college, your chances of becoming a CPA or performing ground-breaking research or getting a Ph.D. is limited...and yet my buddy MTV flunked out of MSU after his first term, joined the military (Go Artillery!), got his CPA and eventually became the CFO of series of multi-million dollar businesses.
The most stable portion of an IQ test is vocabulary.
John claimed that he could estimate a person's IQ within five points by asking them three questions. Then he demonstrated on me. He had a slight advantage because we had worked together. His third question was "Talmud".
After answering, John said "Your IQ is over 115."
"I thought you would answer it to within 5 points?" I protested.
He dodged. "For all practical purposes, all IQs over 115 are equivalent because you all have an almost 100% chance of breezing through your first year of college."
At this point, let me tell you about one of my former bosses, Jim Dimbulb. Jim demonstrated that low-I.Q. people can get through their first year of college if they develop coping strategies.
Every time Jim heard a word he did not understand, he wrote it down. Then he went to a "smart" person in his frat and asked what it meant (giving the context) or he looked it up in a dictionary. Once he heard the word used by a prof (signaling to him that he had to learn it) he was good-t0-go.
The example he gave me was "tenuous", as in "The conclusions reached by Saur and Kraut were tenuous given the limitations of the sample size and lack of controls." Jim was in awe of people who used high-falutin' words like "tenuous" because nobody in his home-town ever talked that fancy.
Low I.Q. people CAN get through their first year of college and later on get an M.B.A.
It is impossible to separate an I.Q. test from the culture
Critics of The Bell Curve wrote an I.Q. test that was virtually impossible for anybody who had not lived within a mile of intersection of Broad Street and Cecil B. Moore Street in Philadelphia to pass.
Culture informs us that "tenuous" is more important than "Sisyphus" is more important than "zyzzyva". At least OUR culture does. Some other culture may place different priorities on what is important to know.
Ultimately, any widely accepted I.Q. test (SAT, ACT, GMAT, GRE) is a consensus of the collection of facts that are a high priority to know in the larger culture.
There ARE racial differences
African-Americans, in aggregate, have an average I.Q. that is one standard-deviation below the total for the U.S. population.
Asians from northeast Asia, in aggregate, have an average I.Q. that is one standard-deviation above the total for the U.S. population.
Same dunce, a few years later |
Ashkenazi Jews, in aggregate, have an I.Q. that is two standard-deviations above the U.S. population.
The differences transcend zip-codes and socio-economics.
Aggregate statistics are not everything. There are individual Asians and Ashkenazi Jews who are idiots and there are African-Americans who are geniuses.
Mrs ERJ's Uncle's observations
US born African-Americans deeply resented students from the Caribbean and from Africa (typically British colonies). The foreign-born students invariably "set the curve".
While the highest-performing, native American-born students might get 70% on a test the foreign-born students invariably got 95%-to-100%.
That resulted in the (formerly) smartest students getting a C and the other students who had been comfortable getting a B or a C getting a D or failing.
My wife's uncle attributed it to study habits. If a math teacher assigned problems 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 for homework, the foreign students did ALL of the 27 problems at the end of the chapter. That did two things for them: They really understood the material and the mechanics of solving the problem AND they had a leg-up on the test because the instructors usually chose unassigned problems from the back of the chapter for test problems. The foreign-born students had already solved those problems so there was no choking on the test.
A third bit of information to consider
Jordan Peterson makes the claim that there is no place in modern society for people with the lowest IQs, a quantity that he broadly identifies as the lowest 10%. He points to studies made by the military at the start of WWII as the basis for that claim, suggesting that the military is an analog for modern society.
I respectfully disagree with Peterson's conclusion for the following reasons.
The modern model of "education" is to first soak the student in theoretical and abstract methods and then, if there is time, teach them applications. It is very efficient to print black ink onto white paper and use that as the channel to push information into children's heads. It is efficient from a manpower standpoint (one teacher pushing information at 30 students). It is efficient from a material standpoint (paper and ink are relatively cheap and the book can be used for a decade or more). When it works, it is efficient from a time standpoint since abstract ideas can be applied in a multitude of different situations.
For all of those reasons, the modern model of education is what had to work during a crisis, mass mobilization of an agrarian, civilian population into an industrialized, military population. That is exactly the context when the US Military made that study and reached that conclusion.
There are exceptions to that model
Today, there are hundreds-of-thousands of examples of brain-damaged people who are productive in our modern economy. For the sake of simplicity, let's say that they have the mental capability of an average six-year-old and enough manual dexterity to tie their shoes.
They work in motels changing beds and scrubbing bathrooms. They do janitorial work. They shovel snow. Some of them manually dig trenches or do roofing or "lump" materials at construction sites. Some of them patrol parking lots to pick up trash and provide the illusion of security. Some of them fill cracks in pavement with liquid asphalt. Others work in factories and meat-packing plants.
They were "trained" rather than "educated". Many, many repetitions with one-one-one trainers. And they are stone-cold reliable. They will be making beds exactly the way they were trained until the heat-death of the universe....unless....something changes.
The change could be as simple as the supplier providing the cleaner in a container that is a different color or shape or size. Or it could be sheets that are slightly different. Or the supervisor on the job-site is replaced. Then it is deer-in-the-headlights time.
But to dismiss them as "unusable" is to ignore the context of the original study and to deny the hundreds-of-thousands of EXTREME exceptions. If a person with an IQ of 60 can be a productive citizen, then why can't a person with an IQ of 75 also be productive?
Another Exception
"Africa always wins" is a phrase that gets bandied about. I mostly agree with the statement for cities in Africa, but does it ALWAYS apply?
On-the-whole, the students at Southern University from the Caribbean and from Africa, the ones who "set the curve" are blacker than the native-born Blacks who resent them.
By most accounts, the British Virgin Islands (72% Black), Bahamas (91% Black) and Bermuda (50% Black) are very pleasant and relatively safe places to visit. They are also places that benefited from English Common Law and they did not reject traditional values "and invented their own".
How does one reconcile the reality of those places with the belief that IQ is destiny?
Conclusions
Culture can dominate genetics and IQ if people are willing to make the sacrifices to nurture the culture with the best overall outcomes.
IQ is grossly over-rated.
IQ is not destiny. It does NOT mean as much as most people desperately want it to mean.
A high-IQ politician who rejected traditional values with predictable outcomes |
IQ is blind to ability to defer gratification, deal with frustration, to act honorably, to not lash-out at people. Those things are skills that can be learned....which is a function of culture.
Training is grossly under-rated, primarily due to our industrial approach to education.
Training is "Do it this way because it works" and is less fulfilling to the person doing the teaching.
Culture will NOT dominate entropy as long as modern education glorifies "Do it your own way" and "Derive your own solutions" and "Make the song your own by adding a bunch of extra notes."
Getting deep, ERJ. Good going. Gramps was a teacher/superintendent at the turn of the 19/20th centuries and left writings describing primary school curriculum in backwoods Kentucky at that time. What those hillbilly children were expected to learn by 8th grade would embarrass most modern college students - if they were capable of being embarrassed. Doubt they had higher IQs than today (how does one comparatively measure such anyway?) but their culture was vastly different than today's.
ReplyDeleteGood read
ReplyDeleteSNIP IQ is blind to ability to defer gratification, deal with frustration, to act honorably, to not lash-out at people. Those things are skills that can be learned....which is a function of culture.
ReplyDeleteCulture IS. If you're a brilliant African American raised by a SINGLE MOTHER Determined NOT to have HER Son, go the Gang Route you end up with Benjamin Solomon Carson Sr. Neurosurgeon whom I had the pleasure of working with at Johns Hopkins Hospital.
I remember the first time I met him scrubbing up to do a case. He politely asked me my name and let me know he was Ben Carson. I paused and asked, "THE Ben Carson who has quotes in my Men's Devotional Bible".
A Christian Gentleman in all his ways.
SNIP Culture will NOT dominate entropy as long as modern education glorifies "Do it your own way" and "Derive your own solutions" and "Make the song your own by adding a bunch of extra notes."
We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality. Ayn Rand
Education that evades reality will never be able to repair the effects on ONGOING Entrophy.
“A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Friday
A Brick home is made of many little parts. Each part MATTERS. The loss of one brick UNREPAIRED can allow the moisture, insects and rodents IN to damage and destroy over time.
A failed door lock can allow thieves and thugs to enter freely.
Thus, the culture MATTERS. However, I can argue that low IQ folks maybe unable to see the need to repair things and be unable to understand the how's and whys of repairs even with guidance.
I've SEEN it working with good natured but not clever people in missionary work in Africa and South America. They WANT TO HELP (like my Granddaughter) but they are unaware of what exactly they need to understand to help.
Nope. I made this same mistake at Claire Wolfe’s blog. I dropped a couple truth bombs about blacks in the comments, and lord - they exploded with a yield you could measure in megatons! Every self righteous geriatric boomer-tard came crawling out of the wood work to explain that I was stupid and wrong about everything and should shut up and go die in a fire. Poor Claire… she watched the pitchforks and torches come out, and wrote as if she were on the verge of tears. I left so she didn’t have to ban me. It’s always the same. The mobs burned heretics that claimed the earth revolved around the sun. So it is they mob up and attack anyone that notices the wrong truths and dares to speak about them today. They’ve been conditioned since birth not to see race, even to the point of death.
ReplyDeleteUnsurprisingly the churches lead the attack on obvious common sense today. I’m not surprised your friend is a pastor at all. For them, virtue signalling is a requirement of their calling and their function within the church. CNN calls a full blown black race riot “a mostly peaceful demonstration” and the holy ones nod in satisfaction. They do it while buildings burn, women scream as their men get beaten to death, and glass shatters right in front of the cameras.
If you’re seriously going to study the issue, the obvious people to talk to are the blacks themselves and the scientists that study them. But… as stated, that leads to very dark places, if you’ll forgive the pun. We’ve all seen the Establishment attack and destroy people that ask the wrong questions and come to the wrong conclusions about their pretty lies - or warm fuzzy “narratives”.
I think the next bus load of “migrants” and oppressed asylum seekers needs to be sent to Eaton Rapids. Claire Wolf could use a couple bus loads in her small town too.
๐๐
Care to share some of those "truth bombs" here?
DeleteWith the indulgence of our esteemed blog host - sure. Note to Joe - if you see the need, feel free to delete this. I don’t want to start a food fight .
DeleteThe case that is unsuccessfully trying to be made here is that IQ doesn’t matter. It’s nonsense, of course - the empirical evidence debunks this notion. Think about it: before he met Whitey, the black man was basically Neolithic in nature. They never developed writing, or the wheel, or meaningful architecture or any rudimentary science or tech. The reason for that is that those things require an IQ. A carefully hidden truth is that 40% of blacks are functionally illiterate and incapable of doing even mundane jobs. There is a reason for the fact that historically, they have been servants, slaves… and criminals.
Crap - I was going to delete the above but fat fingers and low IQs are what they are…๐ May as well finish the thought.
DeleteOne of the other requirements for a modern high trust society is a functional legal system. In all black cultures, this is impossible. The best blacks can accomplish as a group is the Law Of The Jungle. It amuses me no end that you currently have a black Supreme Court Justice - that can’t define what a woman is.
In black cultures, any law that works has to be simple, fair, swift…and incredibly brutal. Even a casual look at our modern efforts to coddle black criminals proves that it’s not working. This is why my white ancestors lynched their black ones. If blacks escaped into the legal process, they’d be protected and thereby encouraged to commit more crime, and more serious crime. If you compare stats you will see the modern approach to coddling criminals fails horribly with blacks… and significantly less so with whites.
So yes. IQ matters.
In another comment, you wrote "Look… I’m not a racist."
DeleteFeelings aside: with your 'truth bombs' in mind, would you not concede that your views meet the definition of racism? Your argument seems to rest on the belief that one race is inherently inferior to another.
Using some of these definitions:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/racist
I believe in genetics and stats, which stupid people often confuse with racism. I am untroubled by their arbitrary labels, definitions and name calling.
DeleteIt would appear you are troubled by labels, because you're shying away from this one, which you brought up unprompted. For some reason, you view 'racist' as a 'bad thing' yet you claim to hold beliefs that fit the definition clearly. There's a clear contradiction here, and you seem to lack conviction. If I were you, I'd grow some stones and own up to what I believe in with confidence.
DeleteReally?
DeleteFrom my side of this, it looks like you can’t defend your opinion, and you’re expressing your cognitive dissonance with name calling. I see that all the time too, in these things. It used to be that you could accuse someone of racism, and they’d go weak in the knees and fall over themselves to prove to you that they weren’t racists, and that they love black people.
I refuse to be intimidated by idiots playing the race card - as would anyone with a triple digit IQ. Fill your boots, Gary.
You seem to be confused. Let's remove the poor attempts at deflection and get to the points:
Delete1.) What exactly is my opinion that I supposedly can't defend? I haven't stated an opinion on this subject.
2.) There's no name-calling. I'm challenging a statement that you made where YOU introduced the word "racist" to the discussion. Your statement that you are not a racist contradicts the definitions of the word. I'm not "calling" you anything, I'm "challenging" your assertion.
If I held your beliefs, I would say "yes, I am a racist and there's nothing wrong with that." Say it with your chest! If you can't be proud of your beliefs, maybe you shouldn't hold them.
Your boots are full, Gary. Your pants are filling up pretty fast too…
Delete๐
I encourage you to look into the concept of "projection" and "irony". Feel free to address any of the points I've made instead of retreating & sidestepping. Have a good night.
DeleteI think one of the things affecting this perception in society is the bubble effect. High IQ folks hang with like people, and vice-versa. So each sub-group thinks they are 'the average'.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't get, is why societies resources aren't distributed to match the 'bell curve', if its such a good predictor? It seems as if an inordinate amount of resources are provided to the bottom 10%, and next to nothing to the top 10%. Oh, they're better able to... perhaps, but what good does society get by bringing that 10% up a little, and how far could society go if the other 10% got the same support?
Raising the roof seems better to me than bringing up the basement, but that may just be the echo-chamber effect again.
Because caring for the poor is largely a profitable grift. The big wheels in race hustling make millions while the niggas in the hood get nothing. Basically it’s the same MO as all your foreign aid to Africa.
Delete?
ReplyDeleteI present the case that “culture” is the-ring-that-binds and you are going to prove me wrong by dumping a load of urban, voo-doo practising, pet-eating Creole-speakers in my lap?
I fail to see how that weakens any of the points I raised.
DeleteIf your underlying assumptions are based on crap, the points. You base on them would be crap too. Having them in your neighborhood would allow you to correct yourself and proceed accordingly.
Look… I’m not a racist. I don’t hate black people. I love pit bull dawgs. But - I make a point of understanding the animals I’m working with.
But… I’ll throw ya a line: culture is downstream from genetics. Don’t say I never done nothin’ for ya!๐
What people call IQ is like horsepower in a car. More is great but if the car doesn’t have good handling, suspension, brakes and steering, the HP is wasted or even destructive.
ReplyDeleteYou get it. Take a multi sided object and turn it, viewing different sides. IQ is but one side. Other sides might be adaptability, persistence, physicality, etc. The more aspects, the greater potential.
DeleteNonsense.
DeleteYou can take a Formula 1 racer, give it advanced suspension, Brakes made from exotic metals that can dissipate incredible amounts of heat, aerodynamics that will glue that car to the road at incredible speeds… but without horsepower it’s a dud.
A better (but also flawed) comparison is that of the computer - and clarifies why you’re both wrong. Without the hardware, the computer can’t run the software.
This is why DEI is a failure and even politically correct corporations are quietly stepping back from it. At the end of the day, warm fuzzy narratives are just that, and Darwin and Murphy will not be denied.
Neither will Dunning and Kruger, it seems.
DeleteAgreed! ๐๐
DeleteDear Filthie, if you had more “horsepower” you’d understand that no analogy is perfect and they only serve to illuminate a point. I’m sorry you missed that in Middle School.
DeleteWell I’m back where I was with Claire a couple years ago. All I did was challenge a flawed comparison and offer a better one… and the stupid people are crawling out of the woodwork with stupid insults. All I’m doing at this point is stirring up the morons.
DeleteAlthough… there aren’t nearly as many here as there were at Claire’s. I think a lot of people are starting to see the realities of race, and the foolishness of political correctness and fake virtue signalling. It’s encouraging.
Thanks for having me Joe - I’ll show myself out.
Cheers!
I always understood that your IQ was a measurement of your (ability to learn). Those with higher IQ's were able to learn things more easily than those with lower IQ's. That does not mean someone with a higher IQ would learn anything, just that it would be easier to learn if they wanted to learn.
ReplyDeleteI know 2 people with IQ's in the 170s. Neither of them were/are motivated to really make something of themselves but are perfectly content enjoying their lives. Maybe they know something I don't know????
sam
I'm going to state that a person with the IQ of a 6 year could not be taught those items you mention. Daughter with master in whatever branch has worked with adults in these IQ ranges. Having met and been around for multiple times and days it's is not possible. She had a 32 year old who test as a 7/8 year old who came to live with her. Was not able to concentrate enough to finish any job given to her. The state has work programs and she goes but doesn't have to if she doesn't want to. She calls from work constantly to say hello. All day, every day. Dinner is an adventure. She also works with adults who have never been inside a grocery store. Parents often lock them up. Horror stories abound about these people. But it takes at least high 70's to low 80's to be able to do payable work. I have one at about an 80 who cleans for me. Does ok, but after done I have to go retrieve everything she's left behind. And I have to be here. She can go OCD in a heartbeat. Mops the kitchen floor 5 five times if I don't catch her.
ReplyDeleteHad a friend who tested off all charts. Dad was a Nobel winner and mom was a Doc who gave lectures all over the world. I don't think he held a job for any length of time until about 35. He developed something that has permeated our world but he died in early 50's. So testing off the charts made it hard for him to be challenged.
My wife and I were friends of a couple who were both well educated and intelligent. She had a masters in biology and he went to Princeton on a academic ride for his doctorate in statistics. They ran their own business doing analysis of data for large companies. I am sure their IQs were well above 150.
ReplyDeleteSo over drinks I asked the PHd if given a choice would he rather have brains or looks. He never hesitated, he chose looks, as did his girlfriend.
My wife was stunned. The three of us all agreed looks with a bit of personality looks would get you farther and more income than just brain power.
Just another variable for your discussion.
IQ is an indicator, not a hard and fast rule. So is skin color. Depending on what color a person is you can guess what tendencies they may have. You can't guarantee it but it is an indicator. Just as knowing what political affiliation a person has can inform you as to their outlook on life and society. Again, not a guarantee but a pretty good indicator.
ReplyDeleteI worked with PhDs for over 20 years, and they ran the gamut... I agree that the Africans CAN out work everybody else. Two of the most brilliant I worked with, one was Ethiopian, the other Nigerian.
ReplyDeleteJust a couple of thoughts, noting differences in groups of people is not inherently racist, even if it points out deficiencies in that group. We dont seem to get our panties in a twist if we note north asians do very well but once we start talking white-black-brown differences its "katie bar the door". I worked with foster kids in the Metro Detroit area. I noted that a significant predictor of successful completion of first year of college was a stable completion of high school. Foster kids have a lot of disruptions in their life and tend to be 1-2 years behind their peers. You would find a smart kid who was 18 but behind and they would get pushed into getting their GED then enrolled in college. They would invariable fail, usually because they hadnt skills like regular attendance, doing homework, respect for others. It was my observation that those things were bigger predicters than a raw IQ score. There may very well be real differences in IQ that cant be accounted for by cultural bias in the tests, but I remember a Columnist by the name of Fred Reed pointing out that though Mexicans were supposed to be a full deviation below their Yankee neighbors, Mexico created and maintained Industries, airlines, communication companies, first class universities etc.
ReplyDeleteAs a Christian, I believe we are all equal in God's eyes, but know we all have different gifts. The low IQ men and women I work with in a hospital, delivering meals to patients with a smile and care?
ReplyDeleteYeah, we are all valuable if you value human dignity.
Have known many highly educated and high IQ people who are execrable and make society worse.