A 10mm Auto fired from a Pistol Cartridge Carbine SEEMS like a good idea. Let's see how it pans out by-the-numbers.
According to Ballistics by the Inch, a 135 grain hollow-point can be expected to have a muzzle velocity of approximately 1700fps out of a 16" barrel and a "hot" 180 grain hollow point might have 1560fps.
Sighted in for a 125 yard zero, the weapon is a legitimate "deer capable" cartridge out to 150 yards with a mid-range rise of 3.2" and 1100fps of velocity at 150 yards, more than enough to get the 180 bullet to expand.
The Ruger PPC in 10mm can be had for about $860.
Let's compare that to an AR pattern rifle in 5.56NATO
Some of the 5.56NATO chambers are cut rather generously so I am going to suggest a very pedestrian muzzle velocity of 2600fps for a 77 grain Sierra TMK bullet.
Zeroed at 200 yards it is a legitimate "deer capable" cartridge out to 250 yards with a mid-range rise of 2.4" with an impact velocity of 2080fps at 250 yards.
At this time, you can purchase an AR platform rifle from Palmetto State Armory for about $400, or about half the price of the Ruger PCC.
Additionally, the ammo for the 5.56mm NATO is much easier to find than 10mm Magnum ammo.
Bottom line
From a pure numbers perspective, the AR platform firearm in 5.56mm NATO is a better choice than the 10mm Magnum PCC. Given the differences in capability, a PCC in 10mm Mag would require a price-point of about $250 to be worth considering.
Differences in capability indeed. Nothing against the Ruger, but it will always be a 10mm. With different uppers, an AR can be what ever you want.
ReplyDeleteI see the logic, but my lizard brain instinct complains that a .22 caliber (even with heavy SP bullet) may not have the desired terminal effect the larger bullet has. Especially with a lung shot.
ReplyDeleteRHT447 makes a good point - AR uppers come in many different flavors and two or three creates a whole lot of diverse ability.
Are you shooting 5.56, or a .223 with hunting style bullet (i.e. hollowpoint)? There are a lot of state laws on minimum caliber and minimum muzzle energy required to legally hunt deer. And remember, kids, you'll never be wrong to choose a Marlin model 336 in 30-30.
ReplyDelete"...there are a lot of state laws..." is a true statement.
DeleteThere are other mammals on the North American continent that are approximately the same mass as a Whitetail Deer. I will give you a minute to ponder that.
At impact velocities below 3000fps, the 55gr or 60gr Hornady soft-point has sufficient penetration to turn a Whitetail Deer's lungs to soup if you hit him "in the slats". Penetration goes up as impact velocity goes down. Any impact velocity above 2000fps will get the job done.
No, they will not work if the deer is quartering away from you and you hit him in the rear of the gut cavity. A 170gr 30-30 probably has enough penetration to angle through the paunch, punch through the diaphragm, poke a hole through at least one lung and even exit through the brisket....but not a 5.56mm NATO.
The other common, deer-sized mammal on the North American continent rarely presents itself in a way that challenges the penetration potential that a raking, quartering away shot at a Whitetail Deer presents.
Pondering. Now I feel stupid. But I did ponder and given my current inventory of beans, it's not advantageous to add another caliber to the mix. Also given that 9 mm is way way more common and should be more easily available in various future scenarios, I'm not seeing too much advantage to the 10 mm in a PCC. And if I'm dealing with some overly aggressive whitetails, I'm not going be too concerned about 1-shot killing power as I'll be using the entire magazine.
DeleteERJ
ReplyDeleteYour analysis is always interesting to me. A long time ago I earned a BS-EE, so technical things are interesting, especially your anecdotes from manufacturing. I seldom used my engineering knowledge during the decades spent in service to Uncle Sam.
To the topic of this post. First, could you explain the logic behind your relative value calculation, that the 10mm is 5/8ths as valuable as the PSA 5.56.
Second, an informed opinion. Pistol cartridges are poor killers generally. As such, they belong in pistol sized packages for times when a long gun is unavailable for whatever reason. The 5.56 is an adequate deer harvesting cartridge in the hands of a reasonable marksman. In the armalite/stoner carbine it is quite useful on deer analogues from 0 to 300 yards. Beyond that it can be a slow killer. Tracking the game wounded by the 5.56 can be quite tedious because of the small wounds. All that said, we regularly take deer with centerfire 22s using heavy weight soft points. The 64 grain Winchester offering usually performs well.
All that said, the 9mm PCC is a useful training tool. It is a bit heavy because it is blowback operated. Ammunition is inexpensive and currently plentiful. Muzzle blast and noise are insignificant compared to a rifle cartridge. Steel targets can be safely used. Many good points when training tyros or those who might be recoil averse. The Ruger 9mm PCC is a good choice for those who don’t want the armalite package or expense; it is available occasionally locally for around $500.
Regarding the relative value:
DeleteIt would take a special set of circumstances for me to rate them 1:1. For example, if components became precious, the 10mm Magnum uses 40% as much powder as the 5.56mm NATO and the 10mm Magnum is cast-bullet friendlier than the 5.56mm NATO. It still uses primers, which is a weak-point, but the smaller volume of powder to ignite might favor lower-quality primers compared to the 5.56mm NATO.
Another advantage of the 10mm is that subsonic loads are more lethal than subsonic loads out of the 5.56mm NATO. But this is currently a VERY SMALL niche for the typical shooter.
Another advantage of the 10mm is that you might have a buddy who can do 3-D printing. Blow-back actions don't stress the frame very much and a 10mm, printed, PCC is a viable option. I am not sure that is the case for an AR upper and lower.
What you give up is ubiquitous ammo, huge number of options for reloading, huge user-base in terms of expertise and gunsmithing know-how.
The advantages are narrow slivers and the disadvantages are broad-band.
Everything you wrote about the 9mm PCC is twice as applicable to a quality 22LR. You can get the .22LR in a platform that will train the newbie shooter in the manual-of-arms of the main rifle.
I will acknowledge that in a cross-the-bedroom shoot of a home-invader I would choose a 9mm PCC every day of the week over the .22LR. But if all I had was a 10/22 I would make sure that the magazine was dry by the time the goblin made it across the 12 feet separating us.
The disadvantages are that
Thanks ERJ. Well thought out.
DeleteYou’re right about the 10/22. It is very a useful tool and handy companion. Every household should have at least one.
Another 'new' hotness...sigh... I'll stick with my 60+ year old 30-30...
ReplyDeleteIf you can hit the target with it, a 30-30 is almost never the wrong answer.
DeleteHit it in the right place, yes. It's only a medium power round.
DeleteFirst of all, there are millions of 30.30's out there. LOTS of people don't know it's limitations, HENCE, more deer have run off and died wounded, from 30.30's than any other caliber. People poaching deer with a 22 have a very high success rate, because they only shoot deer, in the head, when close.
ReplyDeleteThe 10mm is a fine round, but I settled on 9mm and 45acp, long ago. Wouldn't consider shooting a deer with either one unless I was 25 yards or less (I don't have either in carbine). I think the 10 likely to be a better stopper than an AR out to 125 yds. Been a big fan of the Stoner platform since qualifying on an AR-15 in '69, USAF basic. The 5.56 has LIMITS, best to stay with in them. The 5.56 in a heavier round, I wouldn't use on deer, passed 100-125 yards, IF i got the right angle. In my book, bad people get shot out to 400+ yards, because the goal is to make them leave me alone, not kill them.
When you say 10mm Magnum, do you mean 10mm Auto? I'm not familiar with a 10mm rimmed round.
ReplyDeleteThe grain weights you quote are lighter than I usually see - most of what I see (and what customers ask for) starts at 180 grain and goes to 200 or 240 grains. Does that make a difference to your analysis?
Jonathan
P.S. When quoting gun prices, I focus on the price in hand: given the significant transaction costs of firearms, I expect at least $100 beyond the list price to cover tax, shipping, and transfer fees.
I meant the 10mm Auto, the round that for a very brief time was the FBI issue.
DeleteThe Ballistics by the Inch site tested 135gr, 150gr, 155gr, 165gr, 175gr, 180gr and 200gr ammo.
I'll add to "Anonymous at 2104" above -
ReplyDeleteJoe, you mention "10MM Magnum" but I'm not sure you understand what that really is; the "10MM Auto" cartridge has a case length of .991" and the 10MM Magnum cartridge has a case length of 1.242" (+.332") A firearm chambered in 10MM Auto will not accept a 10MM Magnum cartridge, much like a 38 Special revolver will not accept a 357 Magnum cartridge because of the length difference between the cases (.135") is deliberate to prevent higher pressure 357 Magnum from being used in older 38 Special guns; the two 10MMs have a similar difference in energy levels.
10MM Magnum brass is available from Starline, and Double Tap sells loaded 10MM Magnum amunition; there may be other ammunition manufacturers producing 10MM Magnum, but it is not readily available at your LGS, and guns chambered in 10MM Magnum while not quite unicorns, are rather uncommon.
Given the ammunition availability differences, I question whether using 10MM Magnum as a comparsion cartridge is a valid exercise. Other than the energy numbers, was there a particular reason you chose 10MM Magnum data for the comparison? If 10MM Auto was used for comparison the difference between 10MM and 5.56X45 would be even greater.
My error. I was picturing the 10mm Auto...the "hot" version of the 40 S&W.
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