Shooting from the hip is reasonable. IF you have practiced this technique.
Myself have practiced shooting from the hip with Mossberg 500 with pistol grip. Also with H&K P30. Dry fire and at range under pressure (stress). Amazingly accurate shot placement. Not amazing that it could be done but amazing it repeatability.
For every 100 cops/experts/long tome armorers/instructors, there are 100 ways of presentation/grip/aiming.
Which is to say to take advice of pistol grip shotgun (no buttstock) with a grain of sand. I have several shotguns, the 500 is my go to for home defense.
Practice, practice, practice. Practice in low light, arising half awake, suddenly. Practice in glaring light, disoriented, multiple perps. And everything in between.
I am really disliking advice from so many you have to have this, not that, do it this way, use this grip, your grip is wrong.
It comes down to, 'run what ya brung.' And practice with it. Remember, all practice is simulation. You can practice eemergency procedures but in some part of your mind you know uts simulation/non-life threatening.
But you're building muscle memory. And try to use techniques which emphasise gross motor skills because in true emergent conditions, you're more apt to flub fine motor skills.
Some of the disadvantages of a shotgun can be nullified with some of the more recent offerings. You can get reliable semi auto shotguns that are magazine fed and have capacities of 20 rounds. But whatever you choose without adequate training and practice you are facing an uphill battle to be effective.
My big take-aways from the instructional blog post: Never stop scanning. Never drop the muzzle of the weapon from the direction where danger is most likely to be. And feed it every chance you get, it is a hungry beast but never turn it over or take it out of immediate-service mode. Shoot him again. Ammo is cheap. Your life is not.
I've done comparisons and you'd be surprised how much birdshot penetrates drywall, etc, so don't use that as your basis for choosing one over the other. Jonathan
OO Buckshot has the ability to penetrate a bad guy and drill through several sheet rock walls at typical home defense ranges. Pellets that miss are even better at blowing through common 2X4 home construction. Shotgun slugs will over penetrate a human body and have been found lethal at over 100 yards.
That's part of the reason many Police Departments went to #4 Buckshot for police use. Generally, stops in a human target and very effective at most shotgun ranges. #4 Buck Pellets that miss will go through several interior walls as sheet rock isn't much resistance.
Many will dismiss bird shot BUT there are MANY variables involved. I've tested various birdshot against mocked up 2X4 sheet rock walls and found for my 20 gauge home defense needs #4 Bird Shot will blow a nasty hole through a full sized Ham at typical INSIDE the House Ranges. That's a 3 finger wide hole through 10 inches of ham. Through, as the shot column ran out of ham before it ran out of penetration.
The first rule is to never point your weapon at anything you do not wish to destroy. A corollary of that rule is that you must be aware of what is downrange should you miss or if your projectile(s) have +100% penetration.
In my house, horizontally shooting through my bedroom door will result in a pass-through or miss traveling down a hallway and into another bedroom. If the shot is angled upward even slightly, it hits drywall ceiling, insulation, sheathing, roofing and then probably lands in a muck-field a thousand yards down-range.
In apartment buildings, floors are often pre-cast, stressed concrete slabs for noise abatement. If you have to shoot an intruder in multi-family housing, get your butt on the floor and shoot upward. The projectiles hitting the ceiling will lose the majority of their energy when they hit/ricochet off the pre-cast slabs.
One of the quirks of soft, lead projectiles is that they do not rebound off of ricochets like a billiard ball hitting the side of the snooker table. They rarely ricochet at an angle of more than 10 degrees and consequently would pass through several gypsum board-stud walls before dropping back to an elevation that threatens humans.
Opinions are like belly buttons. That is my opinion. And like a belly button, it is probably not worth much on the open market.
Oddly I have to assume (yeah I know) that you have NOBODY Else in your home to worry about. So over penetration at random angles due to stress and moving targets isn't a concern. Let alone if the bad guy lays hands on you during the discussion.
I've responded to odd sounds downstairs and went clearing my home to make sure nothing was amiss.
Thus, my reasonable concern as my wife is upstairs and often enough the grands are visiting.
In my short police career before I picked a "safer" job in the Military (at least gangs didn't want your family killed) I was part of two shootings. Both were justified but the Gangs promising a burned-out home wasn't a wonderful situation. The 12 gauge was our primary trouble weapon.
Back then it was 00 Buck and 38 special LRN. When we went to investigate shootings, we brough along a bundle of yellow #2 pencils sharpened.
When you found a bullet hole you put the pencil in sharp point towards direction of bullet path. Then you'd go in the next room and eyeball where to search for the next bullet hole. We've chased 9mm through 7 walls including an exterior wall and the exterior wall of the next house over.
Found one of them (several shots fired) in a frozen turkey in the refrigerator.
Even the meek 22 long rifle 36 grain Hollow point bulk ammo can penetrate non brick exterior walls and a couple of interior walls as the yellow pencils proved.
So over penetration in my experience can be a real problem.
In my nearly 50 years in radiology...the first 15 in So. Central and East L.A....I have seen a lot of GSW injuries. Among these were plenty of people who had a ton of birdshot scattered across their torso. The ONLY buckshot injuries that survived long enough for me to see them in ER were to the extremities. Take that personally observed fact for what ever you think it's worth.
Welcome Dan to the chat. I've worked several years (just shy of a decade) at Johns Hopkins in the Surgical Trama department. Several shootings every SHIFT. We saw PLENTY of Shotgun wounds to include birdshot.
If you were paying attention to the thread, we were discussing use of defensive shotgun at INSIDE the Home Distances.
I can assure you that in the (pacing off my combined living room and kitchen distance NOW) 15 paces the combined mass of #4 lead birdshot will shred unarmored bellies all the way into the abdominal aorta as well as a likely pelvic shattering effect. The second and follow up shots will pretty much guarantee (as much as any caliber can) massive destruction of the bad guy's ability to use his legs while he makes a massive bleed out mess of your living room.
So YES, the hunting accidents at 20 yards plus with #8 and # 7.5 birdshot (most common Walmart sizes with less than HALF the Mass of #4 lead birdshot) bird hunting accidents would show up at your X-Ray.
The almost cut in half deaders from close range heavy birdshot and buckshot, not so much.
And as for over penetration in this discussion the #4 birdshot when fired at 10 paces at two 2X4 sheet rock wall mock ups the # 4 shot was stopped at bulging the 2nd walls nominal exit side.
As I have other folks living in my multi-story wood framed home I kind of like that extra level of safety for my wife and visiting grand kids. Just saying.
If over penetration and super stopping power is your need go for 00 buck and slugs alternating. Not even Beining on the far side of a police car from that will help as many a police officer of Baltimore could attest after my crew salvaged what was left.
Michael: May I respectfully disagree with some of what you wrote?
In a cylinder choke, shot pattern expands at about 1" per yard. A pattern of shot expands both radially and axially so it is a column of shot. I would expect a column of birdshot to stop acting like a monolith somewhere between 2" and 3" diameter or somewhere around 10' from the end of the muzzle.
Back-in-the-day, work arounds were "cut-shells" or pouring melted lard or suet into the shot-charge before refolding the top. That was a dirty way to get birdshot to stay together to achieve the massive damage you describe.
I don't doubt that you saw the trauma you describe. I think it probably happened at closer ranges than reported.
SPOILER Regarding the discussion being solely about indoor defense: This post was to lay some groundwork for the Cumberland Saga shootout which will happen outside. Some of the same issues, though. The houses are situated in a curved pattern, sort of like suburban houses around a cul-de-sac but much less tightly curved. It is almost impossible to shoot an intruder off of a front-porch without having another house in the background. Similarly, it is difficult to have multiple defenders on the ground without creating a circular firing squad.
All great discussion, though.
Kind of makes you think about the wall specifications for a true safe-room. Poured, reinforced concrete with no cold-air returns.
A safe room sounds a bit like a root cellar although the root cellar had decent ventilation. Not a bad place for non-combative.
The hardest thing about home defense is training the civilians (non-combatants) to stay out of shooting arcs.
Things are chaotic enough when I was a police officer with folks screaming for their kids and what not as we were trying to stop the incident.
My wife and grands know when the Duress Words are said to go to the secure bedroom (exterior class door, well filled bookcases, ready shotgun at hand) as so I can clear the house.
My Good, Old 870 is by the bedpost, loaded with 00 buck, and slugs at-hand. I also put a red-dot sight on it, and it's much easier to acquire a target rapidly.
I've had four training courses, twice each, and ERJ is 100% correct.....KEEP IT FED, or it's no longer a firearm, it's a club.
Thanks sir. The shotgun is my choice for residential premises check when 'Dog is Too Loud - Go See What's Up!" Also, living in the South Borderland, a favorite longarm when camping sleep-outs are done. Thankfully never needed (yet) but things on the borders currently are fluid and they are flowing.
Just curious about readers' thoughts on the noise effects of 1+ 12-gauge 00 buckshot, since, months later, I am still suffering the consequences of hearing loss due to not wearing hearing protection while practicing the same outdoors. I can understand where this is not on the immediate concern level when one is in a hostile situation, it is one of the after-effects that linger. Perhaps choosing to invest in in-ear shooting hearing aids might serve to knock down a few decibels, since I am of a 'certain age' and they would not look out of place. Thoughts?
Shooting from the hip is reasonable. IF you have practiced this technique.
ReplyDeleteMyself have practiced shooting from the hip with Mossberg 500 with pistol grip. Also with H&K P30. Dry fire and at range under pressure (stress). Amazingly accurate shot placement. Not amazing that it could be done but amazing it repeatability.
For every 100 cops/experts/long tome armorers/instructors, there are 100 ways of presentation/grip/aiming.
Which is to say to take advice of pistol grip shotgun (no buttstock) with a grain of sand.
I have several shotguns, the 500 is my go to for home defense.
Practice, practice, practice. Practice in low light, arising half awake, suddenly. Practice in glaring light, disoriented, multiple perps. And everything in between.
I am really disliking advice from so many you have to have this, not that, do it this way, use this grip, your grip is wrong.
It comes down to, 'run what ya brung.' And practice with it.
Remember, all practice is simulation. You can practice eemergency procedures but in some part of your mind you know uts simulation/non-life threatening.
But you're building muscle memory. And try to use techniques which emphasise gross motor skills because in true emergent conditions, you're more apt to flub fine motor skills.
Some of the disadvantages of a shotgun can be nullified with some of the more recent offerings. You can get reliable semi auto shotguns that are magazine fed and have capacities of 20 rounds. But whatever you choose without adequate training and practice you are facing an uphill battle to be effective.
ReplyDeleteMy big take-aways from the instructional blog post:
ReplyDeleteNever stop scanning.
Never drop the muzzle of the weapon from the direction where danger is most likely to be.
And feed it every chance you get, it is a hungry beast but never turn it over or take it out of immediate-service mode.
Shoot him again. Ammo is cheap. Your life is not.
Wouldn't a 12ga 00 blow a hole clear through a wall at indoor distances? Would favoring smaller pellets matter?
ReplyDeleteBuckshot out the end of a 20ga barrel is moving every bit as fast as it is out of a 12ga, theres just fewer of them.
I've done comparisons and you'd be surprised how much birdshot penetrates drywall, etc, so don't use that as your basis for choosing one over the other.
DeleteJonathan
OO Buckshot has the ability to penetrate a bad guy and drill through several sheet rock walls at typical home defense ranges. Pellets that miss are even better at blowing through common 2X4 home construction. Shotgun slugs will over penetrate a human body and have been found lethal at over 100 yards.
DeleteThat's part of the reason many Police Departments went to #4 Buckshot for police use. Generally, stops in a human target and very effective at most shotgun ranges. #4 Buck Pellets that miss will go through several interior walls as sheet rock isn't much resistance.
Many will dismiss bird shot BUT there are MANY variables involved. I've tested various birdshot against mocked up 2X4 sheet rock walls and found for my 20 gauge home defense needs #4 Bird Shot will blow a nasty hole through a full sized Ham at typical INSIDE the House Ranges. That's a 3 finger wide hole through 10 inches of ham. Through, as the shot column ran out of ham before it ran out of penetration.
The first rule is to never point your weapon at anything you do not wish to destroy. A corollary of that rule is that you must be aware of what is downrange should you miss or if your projectile(s) have +100% penetration.
DeleteIn my house, horizontally shooting through my bedroom door will result in a pass-through or miss traveling down a hallway and into another bedroom. If the shot is angled upward even slightly, it hits drywall ceiling, insulation, sheathing, roofing and then probably lands in a muck-field a thousand yards down-range.
In apartment buildings, floors are often pre-cast, stressed concrete slabs for noise abatement. If you have to shoot an intruder in multi-family housing, get your butt on the floor and shoot upward. The projectiles hitting the ceiling will lose the majority of their energy when they hit/ricochet off the pre-cast slabs.
One of the quirks of soft, lead projectiles is that they do not rebound off of ricochets like a billiard ball hitting the side of the snooker table. They rarely ricochet at an angle of more than 10 degrees and consequently would pass through several gypsum board-stud walls before dropping back to an elevation that threatens humans.
Opinions are like belly buttons. That is my opinion. And like a belly button, it is probably not worth much on the open market.
Oddly I have to assume (yeah I know) that you have NOBODY Else in your home to worry about. So over penetration at random angles due to stress and moving targets isn't a concern. Let alone if the bad guy lays hands on you during the discussion.
DeleteI've responded to odd sounds downstairs and went clearing my home to make sure nothing was amiss.
Thus, my reasonable concern as my wife is upstairs and often enough the grands are visiting.
In my short police career before I picked a "safer" job in the Military (at least gangs didn't want your family killed) I was part of two shootings. Both were justified but the Gangs promising a burned-out home wasn't a wonderful situation. The 12 gauge was our primary trouble weapon.
Back then it was 00 Buck and 38 special LRN. When we went to investigate shootings, we brough along a bundle of yellow #2 pencils sharpened.
When you found a bullet hole you put the pencil in sharp point towards direction of bullet path. Then you'd go in the next room and eyeball where to search for the next bullet hole. We've chased 9mm through 7 walls including an exterior wall and the exterior wall of the next house over.
Found one of them (several shots fired) in a frozen turkey in the refrigerator.
Even the meek 22 long rifle 36 grain Hollow point bulk ammo can penetrate non brick exterior walls and a couple of interior walls as the yellow pencils proved.
So over penetration in my experience can be a real problem.
In my nearly 50 years in radiology...the first 15 in So. Central and East L.A....I have seen a lot of GSW injuries. Among these were plenty of people who had a ton of birdshot scattered across their torso. The ONLY buckshot injuries that survived long enough for me to see them in ER were to the extremities. Take that personally observed fact for what ever you think it's worth.
DeleteWelcome Dan to the chat. I've worked several years (just shy of a decade) at Johns Hopkins in the Surgical Trama department. Several shootings every SHIFT. We saw PLENTY of Shotgun wounds to include birdshot.
DeleteIf you were paying attention to the thread, we were discussing use of defensive shotgun at INSIDE the Home Distances.
I can assure you that in the (pacing off my combined living room and kitchen distance NOW) 15 paces the combined mass of #4 lead birdshot will shred unarmored bellies all the way into the abdominal aorta as well as a likely pelvic shattering effect. The second and follow up shots will pretty much guarantee (as much as any caliber can) massive destruction of the bad guy's ability to use his legs while he makes a massive bleed out mess of your living room.
So YES, the hunting accidents at 20 yards plus with #8 and # 7.5 birdshot (most common Walmart sizes with less than HALF the Mass of #4 lead birdshot) bird hunting accidents would show up at your X-Ray.
The almost cut in half deaders from close range heavy birdshot and buckshot, not so much.
And as for over penetration in this discussion the #4 birdshot when fired at 10 paces at two 2X4 sheet rock wall mock ups the # 4 shot was stopped at bulging the 2nd walls nominal exit side.
As I have other folks living in my multi-story wood framed home I kind of like that extra level of safety for my wife and visiting grand kids. Just saying.
If over penetration and super stopping power is your need go for 00 buck and slugs alternating. Not even Beining on the far side of a police car from that will help as many a police officer of Baltimore could attest after my crew salvaged what was left.
Michael: May I respectfully disagree with some of what you wrote?
DeleteIn a cylinder choke, shot pattern expands at about 1" per yard. A pattern of shot expands both radially and axially so it is a column of shot. I would expect a column of birdshot to stop acting like a monolith somewhere between 2" and 3" diameter or somewhere around 10' from the end of the muzzle.
Back-in-the-day, work arounds were "cut-shells" or pouring melted lard or suet into the shot-charge before refolding the top. That was a dirty way to get birdshot to stay together to achieve the massive damage you describe.
I don't doubt that you saw the trauma you describe. I think it probably happened at closer ranges than reported.
SPOILER
Regarding the discussion being solely about indoor defense: This post was to lay some groundwork for the Cumberland Saga shootout which will happen outside. Some of the same issues, though. The houses are situated in a curved pattern, sort of like suburban houses around a cul-de-sac but much less tightly curved. It is almost impossible to shoot an intruder off of a front-porch without having another house in the background. Similarly, it is difficult to have multiple defenders on the ground without creating a circular firing squad.
All great discussion, though.
Kind of makes you think about the wall specifications for a true safe-room. Poured, reinforced concrete with no cold-air returns.
A safe room sounds a bit like a root cellar although the root cellar had decent ventilation. Not a bad place for non-combative.
DeleteThe hardest thing about home defense is training the civilians (non-combatants) to stay out of shooting arcs.
Things are chaotic enough when I was a police officer with folks screaming for their kids and what not as we were trying to stop the incident.
My wife and grands know when the Duress Words are said to go to the secure bedroom (exterior class door, well filled bookcases, ready shotgun at hand) as so I can clear the house.
My Good, Old 870 is by the bedpost, loaded with 00 buck, and slugs at-hand. I also put a red-dot sight on it, and it's much easier to acquire a target rapidly.
ReplyDeleteI've had four training courses, twice each, and ERJ is 100% correct.....KEEP IT FED, or it's no longer a firearm, it's a club.
Thanks sir. The shotgun is my choice for residential premises check when 'Dog is Too Loud - Go See What's Up!" Also, living in the South Borderland, a favorite longarm when camping sleep-outs are done. Thankfully never needed (yet) but things on the borders currently are fluid and they are flowing.
ReplyDeleteJust curious about readers' thoughts on the noise effects of 1+ 12-gauge 00 buckshot, since, months later, I am still suffering the consequences of hearing loss due to not wearing hearing protection while practicing the same outdoors. I can understand where this is not on the immediate concern level when one is in a hostile situation, it is one of the after-effects that linger. Perhaps choosing to invest in in-ear shooting hearing aids might serve to knock down a few decibels, since I am of a 'certain age' and they would not look out of place. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete