I am praying for the people of the LDS church in Grand Blanc, Michigan that was attacked on Sunday.
This hits pretty close to home, both geographically and personally. I am one of our church's "greeters". That is, I stand by the door and welcome people.
For some people, it might be the only "happy" human contact they receive all week. There is one 82 year-old widow who I hug every time she comes to church.
I know that my readers have a vast range of experiences. So I have a question for you:
If I am standing at the door and I see the door being approached by a madman carrying a firearm...do I hit the fire-alarm?
Reasons to do it:
- It will empty the building
- The loud, audible alarm is likely to unnerve the gunman. He might abort the mission.
- It will trigger 9-1-1 response and get EMS rolling toward the building
- Anybody who is "carrying" will be heads-up. I don't expect anybody would be carrying because Lansing Diocese prohibits the carrying of firearms on their property.
Reasons not to do it:
- First responders are likely to be firefighters. They will be at-risk from the gunman
- Hitting the fire-alarm might be flushing the quail and making the gunman's job easier.
Mitigating factors
- There will be a crowd of people fleeing the facility and might halt fire-response outside of the danger zone.
- Police sometimes respond to "fire alarms" to provide crowd control. If they are available, they would likely be among the first to arrive when a crowded building like a church is on-fire.
- People will be calling 9-1-1 and adding detail to the unfolding crisis. 9-1-1 operator will tell the fire-crew that the site is NOT SECURE and they will stage about 200 yards away from the grounds.
Any thoughts?
Triggering a 1st responder response as quickly as possible seems to be very prudent to me.
ReplyDeleteSpecifics can be argued ad-infinitum, armchair quarterbacks will Monday Morning the incident no matter what. Getting the ball rolling is still a highly effective strategy, if you're not taking a knee to steady your aim first.
Fire Alarm triggers call to action. Agree that would probably worry the shooter and make him-her-them flee in panic. Not part of the plan in their mind.
ReplyDeleteI think many first responders are aware they could be walking into a trap. Arriving and finding many outside would probably reassure them the emergency is real.
Good Question !
Yes, thought. Carry anyway, concealed, but carry. Screw the Lansing Diocese. Christ and God never told anyone to be STUPID.
ReplyDeleteOne time when I was new to having a CCW Permit I was at a non-permissve event and asked my friend if he was packing?
Delete"Its called concealed carry for a reason, dumbass.... I'd rather be charged with a violation than shot dead, and unless some shooting actually happens, you're the only other person besides my wife that knows.."
The priest at St Paul's Albanian Catholic church in Rochester Hills (Michigan) used to carry, even while saying Mass.
DeleteAre you alone or are there other ushers/greeters? Are there other men who could be your back up? We have teams of ushers, plus other men who would be on call so to speak. Several people here carry concealed. The ushers are told to pig pile any threat, and call 911. They also get some security training.
ReplyDeleteI think the fire alarm would create more panic, as you noted. The bad guy might get away before the good guys arrive.
Southern NH
Sounds like you have some anxiety and feel kinda vulnerable. Don't let someone else put you and everyone around you in a position to Be Quail. Nutjobs shoot up churches. Why be unable to respond?
ReplyDeleteI have a good first aid kit, fire extinguisherS, located around the house. I'm never more than5 seconds from a weapon and there are magazines around the house.
The ambulance, cops are always at least twenty minutes out. Fire? Volunteer, so, good luck.
I am my own first responder.
I'd be strapped were i you
The whole point of having a plan and the means to execute it is to eliminate anxiety.
DeleteDiocese needs to review Luke 22:36 and many others.
ReplyDeleteA beeper style alert for approved security is cheaper than saying sorry to many innocent people you betrayed by inactivity.
Placing concrete planters to prevent vehicle ramming attacks is suggested.
Suggestions from our church to yours.
The way things are today, you might wind up "down at the station" for making a false fire alarm.
ReplyDeleteI can understand obedience to the parish and diocese. Options for your situation might be all greeters have gel pepper spray. If the doors are solid fashion a lockout bar or large tie wrap. Off duty cop out front. Would a pepper ball gun be permissible if under a jacket? Hope these ideas can help.
ReplyDeleteEMS can still provide triage and transport to ambulatory patients if they are staged close to the scene.
ReplyDeleteThe mass stabbing in Traverse City had eleven victims and I think all of them were amubulatory for at least ten minutes after being stabbed.
I think pulling the fire alarm is a good idea.
ReplyDeleteAlert people to SOMETHING rather than just leave them sitting in the sanctuary.
As you pointed out, it might make the shooter abandon his mission.
But forget following the rules. Wear a gat under your jacket so you can be armed enough to Stop the Threat... should one arrive.
small hole punch, 9mm size (or even .380) will greatly change the balance of power in the situation.
Dioceses prohibition be damned.
Be the watchman on the wall, sword in one hand, hammer in the other. Woody
ReplyDeleteSafety for myself and the congregation trumps Diocesan rules prohibiting carrying, concealed carry means concealed. Look what happened in Michigan at that LDS.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I would point out, is that it is important to train your parishioners. Why not get a second signal, like a portable air horn, like one that is kept on boats, driven by canned air? Train the parishioners to respond to instructions on which exit to move to, to take them away from the trouble. Have more than one armed greeter. The fire alarm idea will work fine as long as the greeters are also trained to call 911 at the same time.
ReplyDeleteCarry
ReplyDeleteEverywhere
I don't want my last thought to be "wish I had my gun"
I would not assume a fire alarm dials out unless verified. The local school protocol to a fire alarm is lockdown first. Assess the situation. Wait for further instruction. Evac on your own decision if you think the situation warrants it. No more blindly running outside.
ReplyDeleteMaybe ask the PD themselves? I bet they'd appreciate a concern for prior planning.
ReplyDeleteNo. If you have to pull your gat, your first priority is the threat in front of you and that's it. As the ol' nickel goes - the authorities might be minutes away... and you only have seconds. If things go kinetic your first priority is to end the shooting as quickly as possible. In the absence of the law, YOU are the law and your objectives are exactly the same as theirs. If something like that goes down in front of you, you won't have time to pull the fire alarm.
ReplyDeleteAfter the event you become the first responder. If you're serious about this - learn how to administer first aid for shock and trauma. Have someone prepared to police the crime scene until the cops arrive. Evidence can be destroyed in the panic - shell casings can get stuck in your boot soles and carried away, the wounded can be hurt in the stampede etc.
There's a vid on OyTube by Massad Ayoob (I think he's a rep for Nighthawk or one of the custom gun companies - Wilson Combat?) - on general procedures on how to handle the aftermath of such an event and how to talk to the cops. If you are going to carry I would strongly suggest you take the five minutes to watch it and consult with the legal beagles. We all saw how they treated Kyle Rittenhouse.
Finally... if you're going to carry, Joe... you need to put in serious range time.
There is a website called Christian Warrior Training. He has a newsletter that addresses threats, etc. If it's verboten to carry IN the building, maybe a few stationed outside is an option. Down here in the Land of the Texan, there are several that have their CCL and religiously carry at service (I made myself snortle). They haven't practiced together that I know of. But I reckon it'll look like this if and when: https://youtu.be/zmTvAZvJ5Mc?si=GrgiIUzInpTdTkqM
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking that the rule against being armed is one of those that needs to be quietly ignored. We are in troubled times...
ReplyDeleteIf I may say so, the organising principle of the better sort of Protestant churches is that church bureaucrats tend to be pretty dismal specimens of mankind compared to the best members of their congregations - which is why you want Elders in charge, not Priests or Bishops or Popes. So ignore "Lansing Diocese" and be a gun-slinger. Protect the women and children and codgers. Isn't Jesus reported as saying "I came not to send peace, but a sword"?
ReplyDeleteYou can debate forever what exactly the passage means but I'm pretty confident that one of its meanings is "I am not a prim, prissy pacifist."
I worked security for two different churches. One small black church and a mega church with its own security.
ReplyDeleteTake this for what it's worth for your facility.
If you hit the fire alarm, people will tend to leave the door they came in . Does this help or hinder the shooter?
Does it make more sense to secure the doorways first and fort up while dialing 911? If you call in an active shooter, everyone is coming and I mean everyone.
We had the local PD practice their response at our facility every year or so. That got them to know the layout of the building. You might want to suggest that to your pastor.
I'm LDS. I carry.
ReplyDeleteThe Michigan members carried as well, and kept the gunman busy - if nothing else - until backup arrived. The Bretheren have a "no guns" policy in the Church Handbook, yet a LOT of us carry AND we don't announce it.
Am I (and others) in the wrong? I don't think so. I will have to stand before the Lord and account for my actions, HE will judge me accordingly. I do not Carry for malicious reasons, I carry to Protect. God will judge appropriately.
I pray for ALL who lose their lives due to Evil.
Igor
As a retired firefighter I'd say please don't use the fire alarm. We are not armed and we're expecting a fire at worst. Having arrived first at a couple of unexpected gun incidents in my career I can tell you it's not a pleasant feeling, or one we can do anything about other than radio for help.
ReplyDeleteConcur with this. Also, the number of people who ignore they pulled fire alarm would astound you. First thing that happens is everyone stands up, Looks around, sniffs the air to see if they can smell smoke. Start laughing with one another and very few people exit the building. In my opinion, it moves people from being seated behind at least some cover (pews)
DeleteAnd now has them standing where they can be easily engaged. IMHO layered armed security “greeters” are the way to go.
Carry. I greet. I carry. I would protect my family, friends and church goers to the best of my ability. After all, my church calls it the welcome committee and not the security committee. Roger
ReplyDeleteLate to the party here. Everybody else already gave good advice.
ReplyDeleteMy geezer two cents worth. An ill conceived "rule" is a poor reason to be sheep for the slaughter/Satanic Sacrifice.
All competent men should be armed and have spare mags. They should have active shooter plans, contingencies and drill practices. If Management won't allow it, do the practice drills somewhere else and be armed at church anyway, always.
Or I would find a church with better sense.
I generally do not carry, for various reasons, although in your case I probably would. However, when I am out in public where any quantity of people are, I usually have a walking stick with me. It's mostly for show (wife: Riiight) but it is a nice stick that I made from a pear tree branch with a 1 1/2 inch stone sphere at the head. If, for some reason I had to use it, it's gonna leave a mark. There are other advantages, too. Most people who see a man with a cane will get out of the way and give him some room.
ReplyDeleteI think we have same policy over here in the saginaw diocese, had a very fruitless conversation with previous priest about school and church security. He was assuring me that the school could be safely locked down but crassly commented that the receptionist who would be outside would be f’d, yes he did say that. What makes it richer- he knew the receptionist was my step daughter. I hope he’s a better fit with his new team- he went over to the Episcopalians.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I learned from the linked book is that lockdowns are dangerous. At both Uvalde and Parkland, a double-digit number of students and teachers were killed while locked down inside their classrooms because the shooter shot through the drywall and doors.
Deletehttps://www.amazon.com/First-30-Seconds-Shooter-Problem/dp/B0FFDMBKMQ/ref=sr_1_1
Your diocese needs to have a security plan. One that includes properly trained ARMED people. If they refuse you need to find a new church. And concealed means concealed.
ReplyDeleteAfter some thefts and an assault in the parking lot of a nearby church, some of our church leaders had discussions with the local sheriff's dept. Radios were acquired for comms between ushers in the different areas. An usher periodically strolls the parking lots (with radio) just as a visual deterrent.
ReplyDeleteIt was noted that an armed "security team" would have all the requirements of a business that provided armed guards; a "safety team", where some of the members just happened to concealed carry, would not have that requirement. I assume that is state law here in NC.
Sorry, the Lansing diocese rule would be ignored..
ReplyDeleteThank-you for all of the well thought-out comments.
ReplyDeleteFor OP-SEC reasons, whatever decision I make will not be published on the blog.
If you (and others) conceal and ever have to stop a threat, that diocese will be happy to change their policy before you can count to three.
ReplyDeleteYou may have to say 3 Hail Mary's and an Act of Contrition as penance.
DeleteYou know, I think quite a few of these thoughts and measures could apply for guarding public schools from school shooters as well.
ReplyDeleteSince the shooting at Annunciation, I contacted our pastor, and he and the principle of our school and I agreed that another parish member (man) sitting in the back at all the all-school masses would be comforting for those that might be anxious. It was an interim fix until they could put together funding for a "safety resource officer". The principle explicitly stated that you can't carry.
ReplyDeleteSo I didn't. Being that guy that was going to intercept an armed shooter, unarmed, old and fat, might have been the most stupid thing ever.
The funding for the SRO came in. One guy in uniform (costume) with a gun. The parish and diocese here have little to zero understanding of the risk, it appears. Their response was driven by little old ladies complaining.
When the complaining stopped, they figured the issue is solved.
Asking permission of the sheep (diocese) to keep the wolves at bay is not what those with a streak of guard dog do. Your conscience is the ready guide. Go to confession and TELL the priest that you carry at every mass, every time.
Pretty sure GOD will understand.
Milton
More commentary and training resources:
ReplyDeletehttps://thelawdogfiles.substack.com/p/get-training#_